From Finance to Storytelling: How to Craft Meaningful Narratives | Lawrence Yeo | Glasp Talk #33
This is the thirty-third session of Glasp Talk!
Glasp Talk delves deep into intimate interviews with luminaries from various fields, unraveling their genuine emotions, experiences, and the stories behind them.
Today's guest is Lawrence Yeo, the founder of "More To That," a platform where he crafts stories that explore the complexities of the human condition. With over 38,000 subscribers to his newsletter and a unique storytelling approach, Lawrence has connected with readers globally. He also created "Thinking in Stories," a transformative course to guide creative minds to develop compelling narratives through structured storytelling frameworks, live workshops, and creative exercises.
In this interview, Lawrence shares his transition from a career in finance, backed by a degree in economics from UCLA, to becoming a storyteller and writer. He discusses the shift from spreadsheets to creative work, his exploration of music production, and the pivotal moments that led him to writing. Lawrence elaborates on his storytelling philosophy, revealing how he integrates illustrations and narrative structures to convey profound ideas. He discusses sources of inspiration, and his minimalist note-taking process, and shares insights on balancing creative work with daily life. Lawrence also reflects on writing to understand oneself, his work's evolution, and fiction's role in broadening his perspectives.
Join us as Lawrence offers a candid look into his journey, writing process, favorite essays, and advice for aspiring writers and creators. This episode is perfect for those interested in storytelling, creativity, and finding fulfillment through writing.
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Transcripts
Glasp: Hi everyone, welcome back to another episode of Glasp Talk. Today, we are very excited to have Lawrence Yeo. Lawrence is the founder of More To That, where he crafts stories that explore the nuances of the human condition. His insightful work has garnered a loyal following with over 38,000 subscribers to his newsletter. In addition to his storytelling work, Lawrence is the creator of "Sinking in Stories," a transformative four-week course designed to help curious minds turn their ideas into compelling narratives through storytelling frameworks, live workshops, and creative exercises. With a background in finance and a degree in economics from UCLA, Lawrence has seamlessly transitioned from spreadsheets to storytelling, connecting with millions of readers globally. Today, we will dive into his unique journey, his storytelling philosophy, and how he inspires others to embrace the power of stories. Thank you for joining us today.
Lawrence: Thank you, thanks for having me Kazuki, and Kei. I'm excited to be here.
Glasp: Thank you. Yeah, we are huge fans of your newsletters and your content. But first of all, we are really curious about how and why did you start More To That. Because your background was in finance and economics, we were really curious about that part.
Lawrence: Yeah, so as you say, I started off as an economics major, and a lot of that was because I didn't know what the hell I wanted to do. It was the fewest amount of classes I had to take to graduate, so I chose that. After that, I went into finance, but I always knew that finance was my way of being able to do something else, right? It would kind of give me the resources to free up my attention to eventually do something that I would deem more creative. What I first considered to be that avenue was music. I started off as a music producer; I made a lot of beats and so forth.
The first leap I took was I left finance to do that full-time, and I did that for about four years professionally, and then decided, "Damn, this is not the career to go into." So then I went back to finance but with the intention of, "Alright, I'm going to go back here because this is what I know how to do and I can get paid to do this," while trying to figure out what other form of creative expression I wanted to venture more into. It was during that time that I started writing and drawing, and it was a nice, refreshing thing because with music, especially the way I was making it—I wasn't singing or rapping or anything, just putting together instrumentals—it was hard to get a sense of my ideas. If you're listening to it, all you could think of is, "Ah, Lawrence sounded kind of sad when he made this," or "Maybe he was a little happy or something happened," but I couldn’t share what I know with others.
What I found with writing was that it was a very direct way of sharing ideas, and I really loved it. The big question was, "Can I do this for long periods without feeling like I have to be read or I have to reach the widest audience possible?" My whole thing was, "Can I do this because I intrinsically enjoy it?" That was a lesson I had to learn from music because, with music, I was so focused on, "How am I going to get hits? How am I going to make this my career?" that I gradually started to lose my love for making music.
So when I ventured into writing, I wanted to make sure I really enjoyed doing it for its own sake. More To That started with this piece called "Travel is No Cure for the Mind," and that piece took me like 100 hours to do, maybe a little bit more. But what that experience taught me was, "Hey, I can sit here and draw my way and think my way through this topic and enjoy doing it," because I had no audience and I still did it. I had many posts like that even before I launched it, but it turns out that people did enjoy my work, and I continued at it. Here I am, a couple of years later, still doing it and no longer in finance. This is my thing now.
Glasp: Oh yeah, thank you. I was always curious—you started with that illustration, and your illustrations are unique. But I see a similar pattern with "Wait But Why," which has a similar taste. Did you get inspired by him or did you have your unique way of showing illustrations? I was always curious about that part.
Lawrence: I was heavily inspired by Tim Urban's "Wait But Why." There was also another blogger or writer that people don't know much about now, but she was pretty big back then. Her name was Allie Brosh, and she had this site called "Hyperbole and a Half." She used a lot of illustrations throughout her pieces, and they were also long-form. I’ve always loved drawing as a kid, and one thing I tell people when they're trying to figure out how they might want to express themselves is to go back to what they enjoyed doing when they were kids. You’re kind of unencumbered by the pressures of the world—this is just what you want to do. I thought, "Oh yeah, I loved drawing and doodling."
Tim Urban and Allie Brosh showed me what was possible, that there is a landscape of readers who enjoy stories told that way. Actually, with the travel piece, I think I started with the illustrations first, if I remember correctly—just trying to plot out the narrative that way. Then I wrote it, or I might have written it in a notebook first and carried on from there; it’s a little fuzzy now. But illustrations were definitely crucial to my ability to tell these stories.
What’s important, though, is if you're going to use illustrations, you want to have some differentiating factor. Tim Urban did the stick figure thing, and I didn’t want to do stick figures because I didn’t draw stick figures when I was young. I drew characters. The characters you see on the blog—I drew those same characters back when I was 12 years old. One joke I like to say is if my 12-year-old self saw my 30-something self still drawing the same stuff, he’d be like, "Dang, your drawing curve kind of stayed the same, huh? It didn’t get any more realistic or anything." Funnily enough, that contributed to the character of the blog.
I didn’t know this at the time, but those illustrations helped juxtapose my writing. I tend to write about serious stuff: death, the meaning of life, money, and adult things. The illustrations bring some levity into it, and I think that paradoxical combination resonates with people. It’s been a big part of what I do.
Glasp: Sorry, this is a dumb question, but over the six or seven years, when I read Tim's articles and your articles, I always wondered: did your drawings get better over time, or are they intentionally keeping the same quality?
Lawrence: Yeah, that’s a good question. I’ve never really made an effort to improve as in making it more realistic or switching up my style. One thing I do try to improve is how I present an idea visually better. That has little to do with the accuracy of the drawing or if my vector is better lined up than before. Your drawings could suck from a technical standpoint but resonate emotionally. That’s more important.
To create something resonant, think about the framing. For example, in the travel piece, I had to convey the feeling of monotony in life—work, eat, sleep, repeat—and our desire to break that cycle through travel. I didn’t want to use the term "hedonic treadmill." I wanted to create my concept. I thought of it as being trapped in a box, which I called "the box of daily experience."
It wasn’t about making the most realistic box but creating a simple, resonant concept. So it’s more about thinking, not just drawing. That’s the difference.
Glasp: Interesting. When you write a newsletter or story, do you start withdrawing the idea first, framing the sentence, or writing the sentences first? How does it work?
Lawrence: I start with writing. I view myself as a writer first. However, knowing that illustrations are part of my process does influence my writing. If I write a sentence and feel a visual would amplify it, I note that.
There are two ways illustrations can be used: as an amplification of what’s written or as an essential element to explain a concept. Most of the time, my illustrations amplify what I wrote, so writing comes first.
Sometimes, I start with a drawing. For example, in "The Nothingness of Money," I drew a simple graph—a two-axis graph about thoughts on money over time. Birth to death shows how we think about money constantly, then at the end, stop focusing on it when we realize our mortality. That drawing anchored the piece.
Glasp: Do you ever struggle to generate ideas or draw inspiration?
Lawrence: Yeah, I imagine inspiration as two characters: a fairy who whimsically sprinkles ideas and a laborer with a hard hat who shows up through discipline. Creativity isn't either/or. You need both. I write for two hours in the morning (laborer), and in the afternoons, I create space for the fairy—by going for a walk, reading, or chatting with friends.
Glasp: Do you keep your ideas somewhere, like in Apple Notes or Google Docs?
Lawrence: Yeah, Apple Notes. I used to use Roam Research, but not much anymore. I’m not a big note-taking guy. If an idea resonates, it stays at the forefront of my mind. I do use voice notes on my Apple Watch sometimes, but overall, I’m minimalist about notes.
Glasp: How about writing? You use WordPress, right?
Lawrence: I publish on WordPress, but I write in a tool called Cold Turkey Writer. It turns your computer into a typewriter—no distractions. You set a word count or time, and all you see is a blank page. It’s simple and works well for me.
So Cold Turkey Writer has been amazing ever since I learned about it in 2017 or 2018. I've written almost everything in Cold Turkey Writer, and it just eliminates all distractions. It's easy, simple, and frankly, awesome.
Glasp: Wow, interesting. And it’s free?
Lawrence: Oh yeah, yeah. That’s the important part.
Glasp: But I’m curious, why did you choose WordPress? And how did you decide not to switch to other platforms? Nowadays, people use Substack and Medium. Have you thought about using those distribution or blogging systems?
Lawrence: Yeah, so I started off on Medium and initially had my first readers there. But simultaneously, I had the WordPress blog because I always wanted to have my own property independent of any platform. It’s easier to convert people into the newsletter through the site on WordPress. But you’re right; there are so many different platforms now—Substack, Ghost, Medium, and more.
If you're starting out, it's wise to choose one of those discovery platforms. But ultimately, it comes down to whether you want to have your own site with complete control. For me, it was important to control the aesthetics of the site because my work is so visual. I wanted a minimal theme that would accentuate my drawings and plot them out in a way that looks good.
There’s always a temptation to jump from one platform to another when they become popular, like Beehive or Substack. But I felt there was wisdom in staying consistent with what I was doing. If things change dramatically, I could always switch, but WordPress offers a lot of functionality, and I use ConvertKit (or Kit now) to send newsletters. It integrates well with WordPress, so it works smoothly.
Glasp: I see, thank you. By the way, what is your favorite piece of writing so far? You mentioned "The Nothingness of Money" as one of your favorites, but do you have any others?
Lawrence: Yeah, when I talk about a favorite post, it’s usually one I go back to for myself because I need a reminder of it. The best writing is often something you write for yourself but in a way that people will pay attention to.
One piece that comes to mind is "The Antidote to Envy." I wrote that piece in just two hours, and there’s only one illustration at the top. This is a good time to talk about how I think about publishing. I categorize my writing into two buckets: writing to figure out what I think and writing to present.
When you write to figure out what you think, you're not sure what you think yet. Writing helps you unravel thoughts and make sense of them, which you can’t do just by pondering. Writing to present, on the other hand, is when you’ve fleshed out your ideas and are ready to share them in a polished way.
"The Antidote to Envy" was a piece where I was trying to work through my thoughts. I was struggling with why my envy levels were increasing. It was one of those writing-to-think pieces, and I finished it in one go. It really helped me think through the issue, and my envy dissipated after that. When I feel envy creeping up again, I reread that piece, and it instantly helps.
I also have another, more polished piece called "Envy is the Cancer of the Soul," which is more presentation-style. But "The Antidote to Envy" resonates with me more because it was raw and real at that moment.
Glasp: I see. Your thoughts evolve over time, right? When you revisit past content, do you ever feel like updating or changing it? How do you manage the urge to edit older posts?
Lawrence: I don’t edit published pieces, except for typos or necessary updates like dates. If my views change, I’ll write a new piece and share my updated thoughts. That’s the great thing about having your site—you can link back to your older pieces so readers can see how your thinking has evolved.
I see my published pieces as snapshots of my thoughts at a given time, like a balance sheet. Sometimes, these pieces act as bricks for something larger. For instance, "The Arc of the Practical Creator" was a combination of several reflections I had written before. I thought, “What if I bring these ideas together and create a framework?”
Two-axis graphs are a great tool for this. They simplify complex ideas and help guide readers through your thoughts. Tim Urban uses them a lot, and they’re effective. Writing shorter pieces helps you build towards longer, more cohesive ones.
Glasp: Just curious—what’s your main source of information? Do you read a lot of books, subscribe to newsletters, or research ideas on Google or YouTube?
Lawrence: My biggest source is personal experience, viewed through the lens of the general human condition. If I understand myself better, I can understand others better. We all share similar emotions and characteristics.
Books are another source, but I read more fiction than non-fiction. Staying within your domain can limit your thinking. Reading fiction stretches your imagination and helps you think differently. I’m inspired not by specific quotes but by how authors build worlds and convey ideas through them.
For example, I’m interested in philosophy, so I read fiction that aligns with that, like Dostoevsky’s "The Brothers Karamazov" or Ted Chiang’s sci-fi short stories. His stories are deeply philosophical. Jorge Luis Borges and Ursula K. Le Guin are also favorites. These authors help me think beyond non-fiction’s constraints and inspire new ideas.
Glasp: I love that approach. I recently read the "Three-Body Problem" series, and I can see how reading sci-fi gives you a long-term perspective and philosophical insight. It’s fiction, but it makes you think about potential futures.
Lawrence: Exactly. There’s no immediate utility in reading fiction. You don’t think, “How am I going to apply this to managing the team at Glasp?” But it shifts your perspective on what’s possible and gives you a broader view.
The beauty of fiction is that it brings you into a world through the eyes of characters. No matter how outlandish the setting is, the characters’ emotions and ways of processing things are relatable. This human element broadens your understanding and can inspire your work, whether you’re building a company or writing non-fiction.
Efficiency can be the enemy of creativity. When you read fiction, you’re not trying to get immediate takeaways. You’re immersing yourself and trusting that it will impact you in a way that matters later.
Glasp: That’s a great perspective. By the way, you have about 40,000 subscribers now. How did your newsletter grow over time? Was there a specific post that went viral, or was it more of a steady, incrementally grow gr over time?
Lawrence: Yeah, it's generally incremental, but there have been some very popular posts. I mentioned the travel post—that one was very popular, and it was the first thing I wrote. I want to caveat this by saying that I was writing on Medium well before More To That. I was writing in 2015, but I started More To That in 2018. During that time, I was just experimenting with what I wanted to write about. Even before More To That launched, I had three posts as long as the travel one already done that I didn’t publish. I was just trying to figure out if I liked doing this, and I had my corporate gig, so there was no pressure to make money from it. It gave me the freedom to work on it during nights and weekends.
So, when people see that first piece and think, "Oh, you published that, and it popped off," I want to emphasize that I wrote a lot before then. It was a gradual process of finding my voice and incorporating illustrations. The travel piece was popular, as was "The Nothingness of Money" and "The Arc of the Practical Creator." But for the most part, it’s been incremental growth.
One thing people don’t consider is that when you send newsletters, people unsubscribe. So, it’s not a straight path up—it goes up and down. Consistency is key, publishing a mix of quick pieces and those I marinate on for longer. You never know what will be an inflection point for growth. Interestingly, my newsletter is much bigger than my social media following, which is usually the opposite. For me, storytelling on WordPress or Medium works better than on social media platforms.
Glasp: Thank you. I was thinking about which question to ask next, but I’m curious about how AI tools have impacted your work. ChatGPT, Anthropic’s Claude, and other AI tools have become popular for writing, brainstorming, and more. Do you use AI tools, and has their emergence impacted your workflow?
Lawrence: No, I haven’t used AI for generating ideas or writing. I do use AI for copy editing—checking for grammatical mistakes, for example. I think Claude is a bit better for that. But when it comes to generating ideas or writing, I don’t use it. I write with my voice because that’s what makes it enjoyable for me.
With AI, what’s going to matter most is whether you can tell a good story. Writing is much harder than speaking because the words are staring back at you on a blank page. AI can provide information and structure it well, but it’s not great at making people feel something. Storytelling with heart is different, and AI isn’t quite there yet.
One thing I’ve noticed is that you can tell when a drawing or piece of writing is AI-generated. There’s just this feel to it. My simple drawings, on the other hand, have a human touch. The hardest things for AI are often the most rudimentary—simple storytelling and drawing are still tough for it. So, if anything, it’s more important than ever to lean into those uniquely human skills.
Glasp: Thanks for that insight. I’m curious about your daily routine. How do you allocate your time for writing, editing, reading, drawing, or even exercising? What does a typical day look like for you?
Lawrence: I exercise every morning, either swimming or running. It’s more for my mental health than physical health; it dispels the mental fog. Then, I spend time with my four-year-old daughter—taking her to school or playing with her in the morning.
Once she’s at school, I spend two to three hours writing. After that, I have lunch. In the afternoons, I do more free-flowing activities, like reading or handling admin work. If I’m preparing for a course, I focus on that. I haven’t done a course in a year but plan to start again early next year. I also do consulting, so my afternoons can vary a lot.
My mornings are dedicated to my art and craft, while my afternoons are for the business side of things. That could mean replying to emails, connecting with clients, or managing other work. It’s a nice division that ensures I prioritize my most important work in the morning.
Glasp: That’s interesting, thank you for sharing. Since time is running out, I want to ask one final question. Our audience includes aspiring founders, writers, and newsletter creators. You’ve already shared a lot of advice, but do you have any additional guidance for them?
Lawrence: I can only speak from my experience. If you want to start a newsletter or write regularly, first set your intention. Why are you doing this? If you want to share ideas, great. But ask yourself: is this a personal form of expression, or do you want to build a business? Those are very different approaches.
If you want to build a business, you need to balance creating for yourself and providing value to others. In the beginning, try to remove the money question so you can figure out if you genuinely enjoy it. There’s a big difference between wanting to do something and actually doing it every day.
The best way to do this is to have a job unrelated to your creative work. For me, finance funded my early writing. I called it my “patron.” It helped me figure out if I loved what I was doing. Once you know that, keep going and slowly incorporate the business side, like finding products or sponsorships.
When you make that first dollar, let it feel amazing. Don’t think, “How am I going to pay next month’s rent with this?” Appreciate that first step. You need to build up gradually so that you’re confident this can replace your job. If you reach that point, then you can think about leaping.
Remember, there’s no shame in going back to a previous job if things don’t work out. The fact that you tried is valuable. Keep building your skills and balancing creativity with practicality.
Glasp: Great advice, thank you! For our last question, Glasp is about leaving what we learn for others as a distant legacy. What kind of legacy or impact do you want to leave for future generations?
Lawrence: This might be an unsatisfying answer, but I think focusing on legacy is an illusion. I don’t have any delusions that people will remember me generations from now. What matters is what I do with the life I’ve been given. That’s what propels me to create. We’re here for a blink of an eye, and time moves so fast—my daughter is proof of that.
I just want to share what I’ve lived, read, and discussed while I’m here. What happens after that doesn’t really matter to me. The promise of a legacy shouldn’t influence what you do in the present. All you have is now. That perspective becomes clearer when you have loved ones to care for.
Glasp: That’s beautiful. Seize the day, and live in the moment. Thank you so much for sharing your journey and insights. We’ve learned a lot, and I appreciate you taking the time.
Lawrence: Thanks for having me. It was nice talking to you both. You asked really thoughtful questions, and I hope one day I can make it out to Japan and hang out.
Glasp: Yes, thank you!
Lawrence: Thank you.
