How to Master High-Stakes Negotiations & Create Win-Win Opportunities | Gerta Malaj | Glasp Talk #42
This is the forty-second session of Glasp Talk!
Glasp Talk delves deep into intimate interviews with luminaries from various fields, unraveling their genuine emotions, experiences, and the stories behind them.
Today's guest is Gerta Malaj, a seasoned negotiation expert and co-founder of YourNegotiations.com. Gerta has spent over a decade honing her skills in big tech companies like LinkedIn and IBM, as well as in global biotech startups and venture capital firms. She holds a master’s degree in logistics and engineering from MIT and a mathematics degree from Wellesley College. Beyond her current endeavor, Gerta has co-founded multiple ventures—including Inception Studio—focusing on community building and incubating new ideas.
In this interview, Gerta shares her passion for empowering individuals to unlock greater career potential and financial freedom through savvy negotiation. She reveals practical tactics for securing better compensation, gaining leverage in high-stakes discussions, and maintaining strong relationships with counterparties. Gerta also delves into the importance of mindset and cross-cultural considerations and why she believes in creating win-win scenarios rather than zero-sum games. Whether you’re looking to negotiate a new job offer, a business deal, or simply sharpen your communication skills, this session is packed with transformative insights and strategies.
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Transcripts
Glasp: Hi everyone welcome back to another episode of Glasp Talk. Today we are excited to have Gerta Malaj with us. So Gerta is a negotiation expert and the co-founder of yournegotiations.com, a platform dedicated to helping professionals and businesses master the art of deal-making. And she has helped hundreds of people increase their compensation by tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars. With over a decade of experience spanning big Tech like LinkedIn, IBM, Global biotech startups, and Venture Capital, brings a wealth of knowledge to the table. She holds a master's degree in logistics engineering from MIT and a mathematics degree from Wellesley College. Beyond negotiations, K has co-founded multiple ventures including the Inception Studio founder community and incubator. Today we will explore Gerta's Journey, her expertise in high-stakes negotiations, and her strategies for navigating complex business deals. Thank you for joining us, Gerta, today.
Gerta: Yeah, thanks for having me Kazuki and Kei, thank you.
Glasp: First of all, we know what you do, but to our audience, could you tell us what yournegotiations.com is and why you started the company?
Gerta: So yournegotiations.com is a business I started with my husband Alex. We help people negotiate job offers as well as business deals. And we've had some incredible success in terms of job offers. We've helped people increase, in terms of absolute numbers, we've helped people increase their job offers by 550k from the initial offer to the final. And that was one of our clients. And then in terms of percentages, the best one we've seen is 42% over the initial offer in total compensation. So we're seeing great success there. And I think what I'm most proud of is that our approach preserves, if not strengthens, your relationship with the company. And it's very creative and collaborative. It's not combative, which is what we typically think of when we hear of negotiations. Why we started it I have always had a passion for negotiations Behavioral Sciences and psychology. I've been trained throughout my career, but especially at MIT under a professor, an MIT Professor who came from Harvard Law School. And so it's been very rewarding and using all those that throughout my career I negotiated million-dollar contracts myself at various jobs. And what I love about it is how creative it is and how empowering it is. So as we help people negotiate their job offers, it kind of changes their perspective and their relationship with themselves and with others in a way that they can take in every other area of their lives. And so they come out of it very empowered. That's extremely rewarding to me. Not only just the financial aspect where now this family has hundreds of thousands of dollars more than over, you know, over years it could translate into a lot more, but they could also pay for their kids' education, there's so much you can do with it. All of that, just making everyone better off, and finding win-win opportunities is extremely rewarding for me and Alex.
Glasp: Oh yeah, amazing. And it's impressive that one of your users and clients increased 42% from the initial. Was I curious, was that because the initial offer was too, I'm not sure. But, you know, and I'm curious about your tactics and strategy, the details of your negotiation.
Gerta: I don't think the initial offer was necessarily too low. The way I think about it is that, and this is how negotiation professionals talk about negotiations, you think of a deal as a pie. And you're trying to, be a good negotiator at least, what I think of a good strategy is to increase the pie. It's less about I take more of the pie and you take less. I think that's too narrow-minded. It's more about let's just see if we can increase the pie and now we both have more. And so for that particular client, I obviously cannot reveal too many details, but they were very talented. So the initial offer was not too low, but it's just that they were very talented, they were very desirable in the market and the team was very excited to have them. So we explored different ways in which they could both be better off, both sides would be better off. So with the initial offers, the client wouldn't have been very happy with it. And then the company would have missed out on an incredible talent. But now with a better offer, they were both happier. So that's what I find super rewarding. And that's the creativity of getting to that point it keeps me energized every day. And then I think your second question was like, what are some practical tactics, was that it?
Glasp: Ex- yeah.
Gerta: Let's see, I think again, so I guess in the broader sense again, you want to be very, you want to keep it collaborative and cordial. More practically, you always want to show excitement about the opportunity that's in front of you. A lot of the examples I will give will be in the job offer sense, but a lot of this is transferable across different situations such as business deals and all that. So you want to show excitement, you want to show collaboration, but you also don't want to show your hand. So negotiations are like a game of cards. You simply cannot play or you cannot win if you show your cards. Like you we're not playing anymore if we all show our cards, right? Game over. And so yes, you want to be very collaborative and cordial, but you also want to keep a lot of cards to yourself. One interesting thing that I've noticed is that the more everyone I work, we work with at yournegotiations.com is mid-career to exec. We don't work much with early career, sometimes we do just sort of to, you know, almost as pro bono in a sense. But our clients are mid-career to exec. And the more talented a client is, the more I guess what I'm trying to say is in Tech especially, and as a high achiever, one of your key strengths that helps you succeed is overcommunication. So imagine that a rockstar product manager, rockstar engineer, or anyone else, needs to overcommunicate to keep different cross-functional partners aligned. So you're always like trying to communicate what's happening and get alignment and all that. That is one key characteristic that hurts you in negotiations. In negotiations, you don't want to overcommunicate. Overcommunication is like showing your cards. So a lot of clients, they're so used to that in their day-to-day work. And so they go into negotiations, they're like, “I've done so much research, this is how much think I should be making.” And like, “Oh, by the way, like I'm planning on having a kid soon. Oh, by the way, I would love to live in Portugal for a year. And also like I'm talking to this and this other company and blah blah blah.” So now they've shown all their cards. And now the companies like, you know, maybe they factor a lot of that into their decision whether to make an offer or not as well as how low to come in at. And I have I have examples I can share as to more examples of as to when not to overcommunicate. But I want to hand it back to you.
Glasp: That's very interesting. From the employer side seems like, that their job is like to ask more, let them speak more, exactly.
Gerta: Exactly. And I'm happy to share an example of when a client thought overcommunicating, consciously thought this would be good for me, but was not. Let me know if that's helpful.
Glasp: That would be helpful.
Gerta: So I had a client a while ago who had two offers, one from TikTok and one from a healthcare startup. And the client was very excited to share with either side, “I have another offer.” So think of like they go to the healthcare startup and they're like, “I have another offer. It's from TikTok.” So of course they're they're showing, “I'm so desirable in the market. I have another offer from a top tech company.” But think about it from a healthcare startup. They can never compete with TikTok salaries. TikTok pays top-of-market, one of the best salaries out there. The healthcare startup will never compete with that. And their sort of advantage in the job market is their mission. They have a very different mission from TikTok. They're helping people's lives and health and health. And so when they hear that this job applicant has another offer from TikTok, they don't even try to increase their initial offer because they're like, “If you're going for the money, go to TikTok, I cannot compete with that. If you're going for the mission, you come to us and we have a much better mission,” according to the healthcare startup. And so they don't increase the comp pretty much at all. They have no incentive to. Similarly, when this client goes to TikTok and they say, “I have another offer from a healthcare startup,” again, TikTok knows they pay top of the market. They know a healthcare startup is not paying competitively to TikTok. So they have no incentive to increase their initial offer or give a high offer to begin with. And similarly, they're like, “If you're going for a mission, what, this is what we do, we're TikTok. And then if you want to go to helping healthcare, help in healthcare.” And so this is where overcommunication, even consciously, like the client knew what they were doing, hurt them. On the other hand, think about approaching this without showing, without saying who your other offer is from. The healthcare startup doesn't know who the other offer is from. It could be another healthcare startup. Now they're competing with their peers to get top talent. So they have more incentive to throw in more money over the initial offer to to get you. And similarly, with TikTok, they don't know who the other company is if you don't tell them. And so maybe they're competing with, I don't know, Instagram or Snapchat or whoever TikTok's competitors are. And now they, you know, they have more incentive to give you more money so to win this talent and take them off of the market.
Glasp: I see, interesting. Yeah, that makes sense. And at the same time, there are two components in salary negotiation, right? One is like a base salary, like you mentioned, and also another is like a stock option or RSU. And which should a client deal with? Or yeah, and I'm curious about your…
Gerta: Oh, that's a great question. So, well first, where do I even begin? First, as a job applicant, before you even apply to jobs, I strongly recommend you get, you sit down for at least half an hour to an hour and get crystal clear on your priorities. And some people have not done that exercise. And I I go through their… this… my… the first thing I do with a client as soon as I get a new client like, “What are your priorities?” Like, “Of course, salary.” “Okay, well what about title?” They're like, “I don't care too much about the title.” “Really? Your last title was, I don't know, Senior PM, would you take a job that is just PM? If you were the Director, would you take a Director of PM? Would you take a PM job?” “Oh, actually, no.” So they had assumed that they would stay at the same title, but in this environment, actually, in this hiring environment, so many talented people are getting under-leveled. And so go through this exercise. I think I have a free resource on my website. If not, I plan to upload it soon. So if you go to ytn.com I have a lot of free resources there, including this exercise. And so be very crystal clear on what your non-negotiables are. A lot of people have non-negotiables around working remotely. So don't, if you want to be fully remote, or if you want to be at least a couple days a week remote, don't even apply to a job that is fully returned to office, right, or fully in office. So get crystal clear on your priorities and question yourself on each of those. And sort of do the exercise of like, “What if this is lower than I had at my last job or current job? What if… can I have one without the other?” And so I cannot answer for the client whether they prefer equity or cash. And you asked about base salary versus stock, there's so much more to it, right? There's an annual bonus. It depends on the company and the role. There's a sign-on bonus. There is 401k matching. There are vacation dates. There's a start date. There's a return to office date. There's food, free food or food reimbursement, or so much you can negotiate and so much to think about what's important to you. And so that I cannot answer for the client. They need to know their preferences and risk tolerance. But I do help them as I work with them, I help them figure it out by asking these questions like, “Okay, well, would you… I don't know… would you not…” They're like, “I want to make at least, I don't know, 300k.” “Okay, would you not take 290k for the perfect job? Would you not take 280k for a job that matches your 401k much more than others?” So we do this exercise to get crystal clear on the priorities. But I think what you are asking, or if another way to think about your question is which components are companies the most flexible with? And for that one, it varies on the stage of the company. So if we're talking about a startup, the earlier the startup, the more equity they can give you. I had a client recently interviewing with a seed-stage startup. And the startup offered them 800k. But they're seed stage, and 800k in equity only, vesting over I believe three years or four years. And that feels like a lot, like, but it's a seed stage setup that you will probably never see turn into real money, or the chances are so small. And now they're comparing this to a big Tech offer. And like, “Oh, it's nowhere near this. It's only like, I don't know, 400, 500.” Like, of course. But that, if it's a public company, that money is guaranteed. You can cash out as soon as the cliff hits or you're vesting. So anyway, going back to the question, a startup will move so much more easily with equity, but a lot less easily with cash because they are generally more cash-poor than later-stage startups or public companies. And then similarly, public companies big companies, or later-stage companies can give you more cash and less equity. The easiest cash component that companies can work with, within cash, is the sign-on bonus. That's because it's a one-time thing and it's not recurring every year. It's easier to get approvals. And base, another reason is because base. The base is one of those things that when you're comparing peer peers in the company, or people at the same level, you're often looking at base and total comp, but not usually like sign-on and all these little things. However, I would not recommend, it unless you have a very good reason, I would not recommend it when you negotiate asking for a specific component because a company might be willing to work more easily with different components. And so if you generally care about total comp, let them give you whatever they can best work with. So think about a startup. And if you generally care about total comp, you, I recommend just saying like, “Hey, is there any more room in your budget for an increase in total comp?” Rather than, “Can I have a higher base salary?” Because they can so much more easily give you hundreds of thousands in equity, assuming you're okay with a risk level, rather than a base. They can only give you probably a couple tens of thousands. So this is just to illustrate sort of the dynamics.
Glasp: Thanks for sharing. I'm just curious, who are the main users, the customers of your negotiations? Like, do product… because you mentioned mid-level to the executive. Like, you know, the target you helping or supporting. But do you have any other characteristics? Or like, you know, traits, or like, you know, ID, domain… yeah, categories… so using your product…
Gerta: We do get a wide variety of, I guess, demographics if that's what you're asking. We, you can see our testimonials on our website. We have, you know, men and women and different different races, different nationalities, mostly US. But we work with internationals as well. But one thing that's been… there's a couple of characteristics that they might just be because of our network. Because of course when you start a startup, we started yournegotiations.com two years ago. So I am an ex-LinkedIn, I used to work at LinkedIn. And my husband Alex, who's my co-founder, used to work at Instagram. And so a lot of our clients are ex-Meta. So he's ex-Meta. It also coincided that we started our company when Meta had their peak layoffs around two years ago. And so with the layoffs at Meta, people were getting lower job offers elsewhere, in terms of both title and compensation, you know, in Tech and in Silicon Valley, people tie their identities to their jobs and their compensation and titles. And so a lot of people came to us proactively. We didn't do that much outreach. We're not that good at social media. We're trying, we're trying. But we're posting more on LinkedIn and stuff. But people are coming to us. So because of that, a lot of our clients are ex-Meta, ex-Google, because of referrals, ex-FAANG. Top tech. But I think it's just the nature of our network. And then another… yeah, and I guess strong correlation with layoffs. Like a lot of people who have been laid off. And I think that's because, well, you know, they're the ones getting new job offers, but also the job offers, because it's such a tough hiring market right now, the job offers are coming in at lower than what they were making before. And so they want to recuperate some of that.
Glasp: Interesting. And I saw your post that, you know, like your service is featured in Times Square through… yeah, Works. Yeah, that's amazing.
Gerta: Yes, we're very proud of that. Thank you. Yes, so we work with Brex, the banking company. And they offered to feature us on Times Square. You know, it was just a few seconds as as as it goes in Times Square. But we were we're very proud that they supported us in that way. They sponsored that. And yeah, it was it was such a joy.
Glasp: I think so. You mentioned that you are helping clients globally, so not only the States but do you see any difference in salary negotiations between the US and other countries?
Gerta: So first I want to say both Alex and I are very cross-cultural and international. So Alex is Korean-American. And I am Albanian-American. I also speak seven languages from various cultures, which has helped me understand different cultures. And so in terms of our negotiation approaches, they are pretty universal, especially since the world is so global right now. We, there are a lot of standardized communication practices. The difference that we do see is that, of course, American companies have higher budgets. And higher… both higher initial offers, but also more room to give you more of an increase. That is the biggest change that I've seen. Yeah, even for the same type of role, if it's somewhere in Europe… we have a lot of European clients: London, Amsterdam, Netherlands, Belgium… I want to say France… India… I'm trying to think…, in Latin America as well. Those are off the top of my head that I can think of specific people. And yeah, the, even for the same role, but… and I have clients who used to work in the US and they moved internationally, and the offers are much lower. But we all we all knew this. I hope it's not a surprise.
Glasp: I see, I see. Thank you. And I want to know more about, you know, the details of your potential opportunities, where the opportunities are. And so you mentioned that you know, base, stock option, and then sign-on bonus. And which one is… is sign-on bonus the one you usually your clients get higher? Or can you tell us a little bit about, you know, which one is easiest?
Gerta: Oh, which one is easiest?
Glasp: Yeah, like you said…
Gerta: It really depends on the size of the company that you're negotiating with. So the bigger the company, the more they can give you cash because they're rich. You know, think of a seed… I'm going to give two very extreme examples because they might be clearer to sort of perceive. So think of a seed-stage startup, they're probably raised a few million, like five or 10 million. And they need the runway and all that. They don't have… they can give you equity because it's probably, at this point, just a couple of founders. And yeah, but they can't give you that much cash. They needed everything else. And now think of it like Meta or Google. Equity is tougher, but they have so much money as companies. And so when you're negotiating with a big company like Google, they can give you a lot. Or like actually the best sign-on I've seen is TikTok. And, yeah, TikTok has very healthy sign-on bonuses. Google, number… it varies, yeah, range the in the tens of thousands. Sometimes, yeah, some big companies even have like, I've seen in the 100,000 sign-on. Also in banking, banking context as well. Banking companies have that as well. But again, it varies. So imagine, as I said, our clients include mid-career, like 10 years of experience and up, including C-level, C-suite execs. And so, really, and then we have like from engineers to product people to project managers, designers. So it really varies, like how senior you are, how… and which type of role and which company you're negotiating with. And so to go back to your question, as you're negotiating with a big company, they can give you a lot of cash in sign-on. It's a one-time thing. It probably doesn't get factored into their like across-team equity. And when I say “equity,” is like everyone being paid roughly the same. Usually, sign-ons are kind of left out of that, even though it could be a big amount. And then if you're negotiating with a startup, they will give you a lot more equity because it might never materialize. You might not even stay four years to see it fully vest. And so those are the sort of the components to work with. But again, I would not recommend, it unless you care specifically for whatever reason… so let's say you want to buy a house soon, or you just want to take a risk, or you want to work for a startup because you believe in and the founder. So if you want to buy a house soon, you need more cash, presumably. And so you might want to negotiate like, “Hey, I need some liquidity, can I get an increase in the cash components of the offer?” Or if you believe in this founder you're joining a company where you're putting a bet on this company, then you probably want more equity. And so you can ask for equity. But unless you have these very specific reasons, I recommend you negotiate more broadly. You ask for more, an increase in your total compensation so that you allow the team to give you whatever they can best work with. Because sometimes it's not very obvious. I said these reasons, but sometimes they might have other reasons why they pay differently. So a big company might give you more equity. Depends on their compensation philosophy, for example. If you don't mind me… I was working with someone who was, a while ago, who was negotiating with Netflix. And their entire compensation was cash, which is… you would be… it's a little surprising, right? A lot of big companies give you equity. But they… this person… they offered them fully cash, a huge amount, but fully cash. So some companies might have their own strange, edgy compensation philosophies. So that's why I would recommend you let the team give you what they can give you the most if you don't care too much which component goes up.
Glasp: And I'm curious about the business model you're working with. And is that… because if you take… let's say it's, you know… if it's a typical agency style, you know, if you increase 50%, then we take 20% out of that. And in that case, you know, if you help people get jobs from startups… because, you know, they offer stock options, right? In case… in case of stock options, they cannot cash out. So it's harder to get a fee. So I'm not… I'm curious about the business model of yournegotiations.com and… Is that a tough question?
Gerta: No, this is great. Thank you for asking that. I appreciate you allowing me to explain my model. So up until a few days ago, our model, our pricing model, was fully successful and very client-friendly. And so our success fee was a percentage of the delta between the initial offer and final offer of only the first year, but looking at total compensation. So and I… and like… so let's say, you know… it does vary. But up until recently, it was 15%. And so let's say you're working at, you're negotiating with the startup. They give you an initial offer. We help you negotiate it up in total comp, let's say 100k. Then we take 15% of that only for the first year. So your question is very valid. You're like, “Well, a startup will give me equity, but I might never see that equity.” However, first, let's say the startup increases the offer by 100k in equity over 4 years. That's a significant increase, right? Like at the end of four years, you're 100k richer, technically, on paper, right? We only look at the first year. So now we're only looking at 25k instead of 100k. And remember, we only take 15% of that, right? I can't do the math in my head, even with my math degree. So it is much smaller. Now you might say that might never materialize. That is true. One, it might never materialize. One, you're playing… if you're working for, if you're going to a startup, you're placing a bet that it will be valued more and more as time goes on. So we take the money off of the current valuation, which is probably the lowest it will be. And you take all the upside. That's number one. Number two, this increase in compensation, you take with you wherever you go. So now if you go to another job after you've stayed there, or if not, you go to another job, now your baseline is 100k higher, or 25k per for the first year. And so that's your new base. That you're like… I… you can say to that, “I was making this much at my last…” I don't recommend saying it, but you can say it. I don't recommend it because they might give you more. But you could say so now this is your new baseline. And we helped you have this new baseline for the rest of your career. And so we think we need to get in on that. And the other reason is this is so hedged for you. Like, if we don't help you increase the offer at all, you don't pay us at all, even though I will have spent a lot of hours on your calls and training you and coaching you and emails and texts. A lot of clients text me all the time on different days of the week, including Saturday, and Sunday, at different times of the day, including midnight and 1:00 a.m. sometimes. And so you you you still don't pay me if I don't help you increase it. On the other hand, you will still, you will learn so much regardless of whether you, you know, we succeed or not. And you can take those learnings not only in future negotiations but in the rest of your career. So I know… and… or in the rest of your life as well. So I know a lot of people apply what we've learned together in job offer negotiations, they apply that to raise and promotion negotiations. Or sometimes, rent negotiations, buying a home negotiation, literally anything. I do tell them not to use it with their partners and husbands and wives, but you can use it everywhere else.
Glasp: Do you negotiate… do you negotiate with Alex at home?
Gerta: Do I negotiate with Alex? I love that question. If I negotiated with Alex, I think I would win, to be honest. He says I would win. But the the funny thing here is that Alex is so sweet and and kind and generous that I… he disarms me with his like how sweet and generous and kind he is that I don't negotiate. And because he kind of puts all the cards on the table, now I'm like, “Okay, what is the actual fair deal here,” quote-unquote deal. So now I start negotiating against myself, ‘cause he's like, “We can do whatever you want.” Like, “Okay, what is the fair deal?” For example, if it's like, “Where should we go to dinner?” And let's say I want, I don't know, Thai food. And let's say he wants sushi. And… but he will not… like he might be like, “Oh, I can’t, you know, I would like sushi, but no, no, let's go to Thai.” I'm like, “Okay, what is the real… you know, I should think about both. I shouldn't get just what I want.” So this… I don't recommend this approach. Well, first of all, I might talk about love negotiations that a later point. I get asked this a lot, like especially in situations. A lot of people ask me like, “How do I negotiate a situation?” So we're starting a podcast. Maybe I can talk about it there. But the reason why this works between me and Alex is because we have incredible trust we're married and we love each other. A lot of the tactics I coach people on are mostly job offers and business deals. So don't apply this there.
Glasp: And do you help companies or employees… employ… yeah, employers as well. So because, yeah, you have data, you know what's happening in the market, right? You know both sides.
Gerta: So that's a super interesting question. I'm going to be honest. I do get a lot of… I'm very plugged into the startup world. Like Kazuki and I met in various founder communities. So I have founder friends and I have connections, including Venture Capital firms, who ask me if I can help them negotiate against employees or job applicants. And the VC funds ask me whether I can help them negotiate against founders. This goes against my life values. I like to help the underdog. Companies and VC funds have so many resources. Let's take companies first. They have, at minimum, no matter the early stage, they are, they have investors, they have advisors, they have tools, they have some money, they have co-founders, and many resources even if it's the earliest stage possible. Job applicants, just have the internet and their network, which the company already has as well. So job applicants are very disadvantaged in this interaction. And it's so rewarding for me to help someone disadvantaged. This is why we do what we do. And so I do not help employers negotiate against job applicants. Similarly with VC funds, they… we have a lot of VC friends, we're connected to a lot of top VC firms. I do not help them negotiate against founders. Founders again, VC funds, they have, I don't know, limited partners, LPs. They have money. They have consultants. They have all their network. Founders especially early-stage founders, like first-time founders, don't have much of that. And it's so rewarding for me to help founders negotiate in general. And sort of level the playing field. That's why I do what I do, not the other way around. I think it would be more lucrative for us to help the bigger guy, but it's just not in our value system. So thank you for… yeah, thank you for asking that.
Glasp: Great, yeah. And also, I'm curious, about your service. But I heard from some founders and people hiring, the hiring manager, and then people who often negotiate money usually after they got hired, and then don't… sometimes don't bring much are… because they care too much about money or compensation. And on the other hand, people don't care about much money but align with their mission for the company or their statement, and work harder. And have you found these traits? I'm not sure. I have no idea. But, you know, do you have some thoughts about this?
Gerta: I'm trying to understand your question and sort of the underlying question within the question. So is it that if you don't negotiate, you will signal to the employer that you don't care as much about money and you care more about the work? And should we think about it that way? Is that sort of the question?
Glasp: Yeah, I think something like that. Or, you know, yeah, from the employer side, hiring manager side, hiring those people.
Gerta: So this is such an interesting question. And I have people who say, you know, “I don't want to seem greedy,” like people who are negotiating. “I don't want to seem greedy. I don't want to seem like I'm not interested in the role, I'm only interested in the money.” But here is the interesting part of this, I think. And I've been on the hiring end as well. I think it's a bit of a red flag if someone doesn't negotiate. One, it feels as if they don't have better options. Because if you have multiple options, you do negotiate inherently. You're like, “I have some good options. Like, let's… who am I going to choose? Let's see how if they can give me better deals, and that will help me decide.” The second piece is negotiations is such an important business skill to have. It shows how you can improve a deal and make it better for everyone involved, how you use communication skills, and how you navigate a delicate situation with diplomacy and elegance. And when you negotiate, you demonstrate all of those abilities in action for an employer. And so when I've negotiated jobs in the past, my hiring managers have been so impressed that they have given me better projects in the job because they trust me to know how to handle difficult conversations and how to navigate delicate situations. So I've had one of the toughest managers that I've ever had, after I negotiated the job, they said, “I'm going to give you these interesting projects because you were such a good negotiator and I trust that you can handle this.” And I was super interested in those projects. And so I think it's the opposite. You don't seem greedy, especially with how we recommend you approach negotiations: very collaboratively, very cordially, very trying to expand the pie. “How do we make this deal better for both sides?” If you handle it in that way, you get bonus points. Like, “Wow, this person did not say yes immediately,” which would be a little strange. “Do you not have better options?” But you are leaning into a difficult conversation, or what a lot of people find difficult. I don't think it's difficult. I think it's a lot of fun. But some people think it's difficult. It's okay. You're leaning into it, you're navigating it with elegance and diplomacy, and you come out of it with both parties winning. That's beautiful. And that gives an employer more conviction to hire you, or that they made a good decision to hire you.
Glasp: Thank you for answering the question. Yeah.
Gerta: And, Kazuki, you mentioned something earlier that I realized I didn't address. You said you have a lot of data. “Do you help employers?” So I know I'm throwing so many misconceptions at you guys, like, I… controversial takes on negotiations. We don't think market data is that helpful. And this is very counterintuitive. A lot of clients come to us, and they're like, “Oh, because you work with other people, you probably have a lot of data, and you're going to help me negotiate.” We don't use data at all. Like, okay, first of all, I love numbers. I have a degree in math and a master's in engineering. Love numbers. But here's why data is not that important in negotiation. Every open role has a budget. And it's not what they're posting publicly, with… which, in many states in the US, they have to do by law. Many big states in the US, have to, by law, post a salary range on their job descriptions. That is not their true budget. That's just a range that they put there just to abide by the law. Strategically, they should not put their budget there. And they don't. It's a very obvious thing to do, to not put your true budget. They have a budget where the team has agreed, whether directly or indirectly, explicitly or inexplicitly, “This is how much we are willing to give someone. So let's say we get a top talent or we can't hire anyone, we finally found someone… this the… this the max will go to.” That's usually said explicitly, but sometimes we… you kind of know implicitly. And so every open role has a budget. Now, the team that's hiring for that role has internal reasons why they may pay below market or above market. And the market already has a range, right? It's not like a market says, “An engineer in SF with 10 years of experience should make this much.” Like it's not fixed, right? There's a 50th percentile, you know, 25th, 75th, 90th. The market already has a range in itself. But then the team also has internal reasons why they might pay below market or above market. So below market, maybe they're low on budget, maybe they don't have a sense of urgency to hire. Yeah, those are some reasons why to pay below market. Above market, it could be maybe there's an exciting new product they need to launch ASAP. Maybe the team is stretched thin. Maybe someone left and, “Who's going to do this job?” Maybe they have media attention. So there are so many reasons why they could pay above market. So we can never know if this variable is the internal factors that affect how much a team will pay for a role. We can never know that unless you have insider information, which is a rare, edge case. We can never know that. And that's why the market research that you do will not matter. So let's say you do market research. Okay, “For product manager in New York with, I don't know, 10, 20 years of work experience,” whatever number, “at a big company, the market says I need to get paid this much.” Okay, then you go to the company, you're like, “I should pay… I should get paid $500,000. I read it on levels. fyi,” which everyone is going to nowadays. “I should make this much. Everyone saying that's how much.” Well, the company is like, “Well, we have our own internal philosophy, compensation philosophy. We have our budget. So that's not how much we pay,” right? That's one reason. The other reason is let's say you go to them with a number… I recommend never going to… never sharing a number number or a range. So let's say you go to them with the number, you're like, “I should make 500k. I read it on Reddit.” They're like… if their budget is above 500k, now they have no reason to give you more than 500 because you asked for something lower than their budget. So now you've left money on the table. Their budget could have been 700. Now you left 200k on the table, right? These are fake numbers. But I do, of course, have clients who make in the millions. And and so, and so then they… you've left money on the table. Or if their budget is 400, and this is maybe a dream job for you, or a great job for you, or you don't have other options, they're like, “Wait, this person is asking for 25% more than our budget. Like, maybe they're entitled. This is a bit of a red flag. They're asking for a lot. Like, where did they get this number? Maybe they don't understand the role.” So you could turn them off by citing a very, very high number. So those are two main reasons why not to worry too much about market market research. And other reasons are it's not accurate. So for an employer to get market data… I used to work at salary.com. Companies would pay us a lot of money to have access to market data that was employer-reported and aggregated and cleaned up and all that. Job applicants, a typical job applicant, doesn't have access to that. That's very expensive to get. What you're seeing out there on Levels or Reddit or Google or whatever, is not good data. It, at best, even if it is good data, which… there's no reason why it would be… like… good data is expensive. Even if it is good data, it's outdated, usually by a couple of years. And we know the market has changed so much in the last few years. I hope that answers your question.
Glasp: Yeah, that answers. Since… I want to touch on the AI perspective since AI is trendy and so many AI agents and AI legal services… AI negotiation services are out there. So I'm curious, is that a threat to your business? Meaning you work with like a percentage of the total difference, right? But those AI services usually just $100 per month, or something like that. It's a huge disruption in the market. And, I'm curious about your thoughts on these AI tools, AI negotiation tools.
Gerta: So, well, first, I am generally very optimistic about AI. Inception Studio which I co-founded, and where I referred you on the first cohort, is an incubator and community of founders and engineers building with generative AI. So I'm very optimistic about the impact that AI will have on society. Now, specifically for my business, there are a few reasons why I don't feel threatened at this point. Of course, maybe something will come out that will disrupt it. I generally welcome disruption. I think as a society, net, I want us to be more efficient, all of us, so that we can focus on other things. And so why am I not threatened? One, AI is still hallucinating a lot. And I have thought about turning myself into, or like, I guess, training a GPT on my content. I have a lot of content out there, you know, not only private content but also public content. I've done a lot of podcasts and talks and all of that, newsletter and all that. But I don't… I could ride the wave of AI and monetize out of it, but I don't feel comfortable. I don't… I can't fully tell you that I'm behind on what the GPT will recommend because of its hallucinations and how it will position things. And in negotiations, every little word matters. So as I mentioned earlier, even when you logically think this is a good strategy, “I will tell the healthcare startup that I have an offer from TikTok.” It's good logic, right? But you have failed to think about some of the other repercussions. And so we… AI could convince you, “Hey, that's a great idea. TikTok is a top tech company, and having an offer from it is a great idea, it shows that you're desirable in the market, you tell that company that you have another offer from Tik… TikTok.” Because of my experience in negotiations for like 10, 10-plus years, trained by world-class negotiators, and doing this day in and day out, I can go a little deeper in the layers of what's happening versus… I don't trust AI to have gone into that depth. And I worry more that it, with its hallucinations and how convincing it can sound, might convince people to take the wrong step. And then, like I said, every little word matters. And I don't think AI is as nuanced as someone who is doing this day in and day out. And I review all my clients' drafts before they send emails to companies as they're negotiating. And I tweak every little word that might matter because of how it's… it can be perceived. And because of what it's communicating. And so I don't think AI is there yet. Another reason…
Glasp: Sorry to interrupt, but…
Gerta: No, go ahead. There are more reasons.
Glasp: But since you know about AI technology behind, and you started Inception Studio as a founder, and since you are a negotiation expert, you know how you communicate and modify email for clients. But have you thought about training AI, or fine-tuning AI for your case? So that… there's a huge opportunity for you, right? Because you know AI, and you are the… the negotiation expert. If you create AI that works, no hallucination, no, mistakes, then that couldn't be the best for your case, or not?
Gerta: I know what you mean. I just… we offer such a tailored, personalized service right now that… maybe we will build an AI at some point that will be very fine-tuned. Right now, I enjoy working one-on-one with people and taking in all the little little details that make the biggest difference. So like I said, because… the other thing is we also want the client… what I… like I said, I review their emails and all that. I also want them to sound like themselves, right? And so when AI prepares a draft for you, you can see it's AI. We can all… I mean, I have friends now when they're dating, they're texting the… the people they're dating with ChatGPT language. It's so hilarious. But anyway, so what I'm saying is, we… I go with such a fine-tooth comb into all the… how my client talks, what every single word… how it can be perceived, what the company says, how they say it… I review their emails. If there's an email exchange, I review their screenshots. And I offer such a personalized, like white-glove service to my clients that I don't trust… I… Of course, AI is 80% amazing, but that 20% makes all the difference in negotiation. And I don't trust that 20%. What are some other reasons? I was trying to think of some other reasons. Yeah, overall, I think also people like to work with people. Like, half my job sometimes is just being like a therapist. So negotiations can be very taxing emotionally. So yes, when my clients come to me they're like, “I'm getting a lower offer, I was making more at my last job.” So they want to make more. And coach them through it, and they start negotiating. But the company, now, for example, doesn't respond to my client for one or two days. Now they start freaking out like, “Oh my gosh, will they rescind my offer?” So now I'm… I'm… half half of my job is to be a therapist. Like, “Don't worry, I have seen this with other clients. It's okay. Now they need to get alignment from, and approval from, other teams. And it's hard to get people on the call because they have busy schedules. I'm here with you, don't worry.” And I hop on calls, and I can hear my voice, and I can soothe them and then comfort them. And I'm like, and, you know… so… and that human connection, which is half my job, AI cannot replace right now. Maybe… but I don't think right now. Then the other half, as I said, the all the details, all the little care that I put into it, taking in all the, you know, sort of… yeah… all the ins and outs of the negotiation… again, I don't trust AI to do that. To be honest, I'm not even using AI for an initial draft of emails. I do that myself from scratch just because I worry it will start sounding like AI. And then it kind of breaks the rapport with the companies. Like, “Are they using AI for this?” So overall, right now, I don't think it's a good solution. I think the personal touch is still… that… it has a strong moat. Will it get better? Maybe. But I don't see it shortly, to be honest.
Glasp: Makes sense. But if you want to work on an AI solution together…
Gerta: Oh yeah, yeah, maybe not… maybe not negotiations. Some… maybe tangential. Where a lot of people could use some help is job search. So I don't help with job search. I'm very focused on this niche, negotiations. But a lot of people are struggling with job search right now. That could use some AI solutions. And people are working on that. It's not like they're not. So we can talk offline about that.
Glasp: Yeah, or if founders watching this video or interview and, you know… it's a great idea to work. I dress for sure.
Gerta: Yeah, I work with founders too, like I mentioned. I'm just focusing on job offers because that's most of my clients. But a few of my clients are founders as well. We help them negotiate business deals. I used to negotiate million-dollar contracts when I worked in tech biotech and startups. So happy to chat with the founders as well.
Glasp: Cool. And since you mentioned Inception Studio, I was curious about, you know… yeah, we… you know, Gerta and I met at On Deck, for… and then, you know, you started Inception Studio. Then you invited me for the first cohort. And thank you so much. I appreciate. But I was curious, you know, how did… how did you… how… and why did you start Inception Studio at the time? I was curious about the backstory, you know.
Gerta: Yeah, of course. So everyone knows I'm passionate about negotiations. Another thing I'm super passionate about is communities. So I'm Albanian. I come from a very community-oriented culture. You're always surrounded by people. As I moved to the US a long time ago… I think it's been 16 years… the one thing I still can't get used to is how individualistic it is and how isolated people are. So over the… over my entire time in the US, I've built various communities, I've led communities, I co-founded communities. And I was in a small mastermind circle of MIT alums. And my my friend John Way was saying how, “I want to bring together some founders and engineers to like hack away.” And I was like, “Oh, I I have a lot of experience with this. I've built communities, have co-led communities, I’ I've become… I've been a member of so many.” Like I was at On Deck early. We were both like early adopters, like first… first 10… cohort 9. I used to live at Launch House. I lived at Launch House, which was also a founder community. Half the half the group was founders, half was creators. And I… when I was in VC, I was the operations partner at SPC. And a lot of my job was community building. And so I'm like, “Oh, John, I can participate in this.” And so we started collaborating with Andy Chow, the co-founder of Ventrillo that you mentioned at the beginning of the call. So and a couple of other people, we started working on Inception Studio. And with my experience on community building, I had this like… we did this, you know, sort of persona breakdown, like, “Who's the right fit? What about the length?” We… I was thinking through all of that as I had all this experience. And then like, “Where should we go?” Like I found the place where to have the retreat. Did this breakdown of the lengths and all that? So it was it was very rewarding. And then as it started… like we we did the first cohort and it was starting to take off. Like, okay, I… it was great. And I'm like, “I also want to start my own business in a different space.” Inception Studio is an incredible community, so talented. The business model typically has a fund attached to it. Usually for founder communities, you need a fund in general, unless you have people pay to become members, which is similar to the On Deck model. Either of those was not something I see myself doing in the next 10 years. Maybe eventually. And so I started YourNegotiations with Alex. And I'm now a friend of Inception Studio more from the from afar.
Glasp: Oh, yeah, I love… actually, we interviewed John Way in the past.
Gerta: Oh, awesome.
Glasp: Talk series. Yeah.
Gerta: That's great.
Glasp: Yeah, I see, I see. John, I run into him at a lot of events. So with my community-building passion, I still go to a lot of events. And I ran into him recently at one of them.
Glasp: Yeah, and I saw they finished… just… cohort… Inception cohort 15 in Japan.
Gerta: Yes, I heard about the Japan cohorts. It's wonderful.
Glasp: Yeah, don't… speaks Japanese, I think. So that's super cool.
Gerta: Yeah, amazing. And also…
Glasp: I don't know if you can, time is running up, but if you can… I'm not sure if you can share about this. But, I saw you invest in startups. I'm curious about what's the criteria you investing in startups. And if you can share what traits you are looking for.
Gerta: I had it on my LinkedIn that I angel invest a little bit. And I get so many cold DMs and so many emails, and so I had to remove it. So right now, both I and my husband are working on YourNegotiations, which is a bootstrap company. And we are not very liquid. We've been doing this for two years, bootst… I have no venture money. So we are not angel investing right now anymore. Yes. So… but thank you for asking that, because I had it on my LinkedIn as like, in, you know… it's part of what I've done. And then I was getting so many cold reach-outs, and so I removed it recently.
Glasp: If you have money to invest in… so which area, or what kind of company do you want to invest in?
Gerta: If… I don't know if you mean like if I had money in general, how much money and all that. But I care very deeply… there is an issue in the world that I care very deeply, and it is tied to YourNegotiations. I care very, very deeply about underprivileged populations, especially vulnerable young women in… I come from Albania, a developing country. A lot of vulnerable women there. And I care very deeply about that. So it's less about investing… yeah if I could invest in some sort of non-profit, or whoever is working in that direction, I care very deeply about that. So I don't know yet how I can best help that segment of the the population. If anyone watching knows, please reach out. The way I try to contribute is I have a lot of free content on negotiations. And so I hope that young women coming into the workforce can use that for their sort of education and their own like compensation and all that. And they do. I get emails every so often, they're like, “Hey, I listened to your podcast and I made this much more money. Thank you so much.” And that is extremely rewarding to me. So that's sort of my way of giving back: all the free content out there, newsletter, LinkedIn post, Instagram post. But I would love to help even more underprivileged, I guess, young women in developing countries. I just don't know how yet. So if anyone knows, please let me know.
Glasp: I think we can put the contact information in the description of this video.
Gerta: Yeah, for sure.
Glasp: And do you have any other, like, goals in your life, or for your business, for the next few years, or five years? Do you have some milestone goals?
Gerta: Yeah, my goal is to increase the reach as much as possible. So my goal… I was trying to crystallize it the other day… if someone could benefit from what I share and what… or sort of what I know and I could teach them, they have a way to connect to it. That's my goal in the next five or so years. Right now, because I don't have that much reach, I do a little bit of, you know, social media and stuff. I think there's still an inefficiency in the market, quote unquote. So I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who could benefit from either working with me or consuming my free content, but they don't know how to get me and I don't know how to get them, how to reach each other. And so actually, Alex and I are launching a podcast in the next few weeks. Right now we're thinking of calling it “Gentle Power,” because that's our philosophy on negotiations. You have power, you want to protect your power, and you also use it gently. You don't want to use it forcefully. So we're considering doing that. And then half the episodes will be on our personal life and sort of our life philosophy and various… just to give people a sense of who we are and what we believe in, especially since we're husband and wife. Like, it might be interesting to see what our lives are like. And then the other half is about our business and negotiation tips and things that people might find useful in that from that perspective. So I think maybe that podcast will help us reach more people. So that's the goal. I just want to help as many people as possible. Of course, you know, would love to get more clients, but if I can help them for free, that's that's very rewarding to me as well.
Glasp: Amazing. And sorry, one more question. Sorry about that. And, yeah, for sure. So since you are an expert in community building, right, I was curious, you know, what is the most important aspect, or the aspect you care about the most, you know, when you are building a community?
Gerta: The aspect you care the most when you're building community? That's so interesting. Well, first… the first thing that comes to mind is this book called The Art of Gathering by… I want to try to remember her name. I think she's a Harvard professor. Let me just look it up because I… I am very curious about this. I think it's… yeah, Priya Parker. The Art of Gathering. And one thing that she says that's super interesting is that don't be afraid to be opinionated and a little bit, quote-unquote, dictatorial when you gather people. Meaning it's okay to have some rules that might be a little uncomfortable to implement. And so she's talking mostly like in-person gathering, but we can kind of extrapolate. So if you are… if you are very relaxed and you don't have any sort of rules or guiding principles around your community, it's not as rewarding for people to be there. It doesn't have a shape of its own. If it's an in-person gathering, for example, one thing I like to do when I gather people in person, it's like, “Sit next to someone you don't know on both sides,” like if you're gathering. And so similarly, for communities, you want to have some of these guiding principles. So for Inception Studio, for us, it was, “We want rockstar engineers and founders,” right? And that that was… that is the sort of the spirit of Inception Studio. We… I recently was co-leading a… a global… the San Francisco chapter of a global community called Sandbox. And we… the guide… the values that we have are: “People who want to make a difference in the world, who are very ambitious, and who care about making the world better.” And so as we go through… and, “People who care about community building and being vulnerable and all that.” As we go through applications, some excellent people apply, but you can tell that they currently don't have the bandwidth to invest in the community, or to spend time in it. And so we don't end up accepting them. That's hard to do. They are rock stars. We had to turn down a few incredible people, like top in their fields. But we need them to sort of fit into the ethos of the community, which is: to care about the community, be able to give back, and be able to invest time and effort. And if they don't have a band… it doesn't make sense for them to be members of the community. So bringing from The Art of Gathering and and Priya Parker, I think one of the things I think about a lot is these like… the quality the the ethos of the community, and if the members are a good fit. No matter how much I would love to have them, is this a mutually good fit?
Glasp: Yeah, very insightful, you know, ideas and insight. Thank you.
Gerta: Yeah.
Glasp: Before ending the interview, two things. And we want to ask you… do you have any advice to people who are going to negotiate business situation, like salary compensation, whatever? Do you have final advice?
Gerta: Yes. So I mean, go to yournegotiations.com is… go… that's not what I was going to say, because that's very obvious. And we might not be a good fit to work together. So we can… we do offer a free consultation call to see if we're a good fit. But beyond that, approach it with a lot of curiosity, being cordial, and being creative. And the next layer is to give people the benefit of the doubt. So sometimes the other party might ask you some very personal questions, or they might ask you to show your hand. Like, “What's your preferred number?” That's an unfair question. “How much did you make at your last job?” That's an unfair question. It's similar to saying, “Show me your cards when we're playing.” Give them the benefit of the doubt, because maybe they don't know it's an unfair question. Maybe some… their manager has asked them to ask this. Not only they might not be doing it on purpose, but even if they are doing it on purpose, keeping things positive and keeping the relationship top of mind will benefit you at the end of the day. So that's… yeah, that's the main advice.
Glasp: Thank you. And today's talk reminded me of… and I took a business… and reminded me of one concept, like “possible agreement.”
Gerta: Yeah, interesting concept.
Glasp: Yeah.
Gerta: There's some… there's BAT… there's all that. When working with me, I don't go into the theory at all. Like, I don't try to do like, “Oh, what's your BATNA?” BATNA is the Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement. I don't go into any of that because I like to keep things very practical. I'm a very practical person. I'm a very direct… I tell my clients, “I wouldn't phrase it that way, I would phrase it this way. And here's why.” It… people find it… I was at some point wondering, “Will they find this too direct?” But people find it pretty refreshing. It's a very efficient communication method. “Don't do this, don't say this, say this, do this.” It helps me… I come from Albania, we're a very direct culture. It helps me just be myself, and be more efficient, and then everyone's happier, and everyone makes more money. So we don't go into the theory of it all because it's just more confusing. I could walk people through the theory and the psychology. And “There's a study from 1997 that says if you say this and you…” I don't think that's valuable, especially as you're negotiating. You just need to know what to do and not do.
Glasp: Thank you. So, yeah, this is the last question. Since Glasp is a platform where people share what they're reading, and learning, as a digital legacy, we want to ask you what legacy or impact you hope to leave behind for future generations.
Gerta: I am trying to be… I'm trying to be not cliché. But what I hope to accomplish through my work is for people… for everyone to be as happy they could… as they can be. I think there's an amount of happiness out there. And of course, money is… does not… is not happiness, necessarily. But it does help a lot. And so when we help people negotiate, you know, having a couple more hundreds of thousands of dollars in the bank, it may help your kid with their college tuition, or like, you know, a better house, or whatever. So I just want everyone to be as happy as they can be. I love efficiency. And so I love helping people grab any opportunity that's out there. And negotiations are ultimately about grabbing the opportunities that are out there. Ask for things, don't leave things in the unspoken, as long as you do it nicely and gently and cordially and professionally. It doesn't hurt to ask, and maybe you will both be happier and better off. That is ultimately… the legacy I want to leave. As part of that, the sort of secondary effect is empowerment. As people learn these tools, they feel more empowered. Like, “Wow, I didn't even know… I hear this all the time… I didn't even know this was possible. I didn't even know I could ask for that.” Like, when I was a venture-backed founder, we went to… my… a portfolio company of my lead investor… so the lead investor hosted a portfolio company retreat. I go there, I'm talking to these founders about negotiations. And back then, it was just a passion, I was working on something else. I'm like, “Who here negotiates their rent?” Only half the people raised their hands. And the other half was like, “I didn't even know I could negotiate my rent.” And so I want to empower people to know that anything is possible. And I do this through negotiations. Other people do this in other ways. I don't know: yoga, meditation, what… whatever. But this is my legacy: empowerment and happiness, I guess.
Glasp: Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, and everything is negotiable. And an idea you want to increase the total pie, not only in a negotiation sense but total pie for happiness for people. And that's exactly very impressive and beautiful. Thank you.
Gerta: I appreciate it. Thank you.
Glasp: And yeah, again… yeah, thank you so much for joining today.
Gerta: Yeah, we enjoyed the conversation. Thank you so much, Kazuki and Kei. I super enjoyed catching up with you both. We've known each other for so long now. And yeah, we lived in the Inception Studio's first cohort house together, and it was it was so fun. I see you at On Deck events and all that. So it's so great chatting with you guys today. Thank you so much.
